Ryan spent years in the specialty coffee industry prior to starting at Red Van Workshop and was happy to share some coffee brewing tips with us as we walked through his journey from a BA barista to certified SFCC developer.

The following transcript has been lightly edited for clarity from the interview between Ryan Rotman and Patrick Bowen.

Patrick Bowen:

I'm Pat, this guy at Red Van... but welcome Ryan. This is our first employee spotlight interview in this format and so the goal is to get to know you and I thought that by chatting with, you would be particularly interesting because I think of your path here and the fact that you went through Red Van University and then were recently certified and then at some point, we're going to chat about coffee because you are supposedly the closest thing to a deity surrounding coffee we have at this company.

That's my horrible introduction. But yeah, Ryan, why don't you? Tell us how you got here or your path here.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah. Well, thanks Pat, it's great to get to do this with you and my path here to Red Van is a little roundabout or convoluted, not sure what the right word for it would be. Basically, as a developer for me, it was a career change. I spent a lot of years in the specialty coffee industry, nearly a decade between a couple different shops but my college degree is actually in music. So it's been a very interesting journey getting to this point.

Patrick Bowen:

Because I'm a complete novice. When you say specialty coffee, what does that mean compared to non-specialty coffee?

Ryan Rotman:

So, specialty coffee would be I guess in a sense you could kind of think of it as those one off cafes. Those local cafes in your hometown, but it also…

Patrick Bowen:

So are we talking roasting their own or we talking just in the preparation. When you say specialty coffee or are those both ‘Yes’?.

Ryan Rotman:

It could be both ‘Yes’ Some will roast their own, some will not, but it really comes down to the type of coffee that they're actually using. In the coffee world there's all kinds of variations and levels. If you were to put it in the wine perspective you have the really high scoring and wines and wines that aren't very high scoring. Specialty coffee would be like the high scoring coffees, but it also goes further. It depends on things like the moisture content in the coffee before it gets to a roaster; it has to be a certain level for it to be considered specialty. Typically it’s the places that you're gonna pay more for a drink as well.

Patrick Bowen:

So in Pat terms, or in layman terms, what you're saying is specialty coffee is the coffee that meets a certain threshold of care and artistry, from roasting all the way through to serving?

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it and then it does go back even further to even at the farm itself. How well it's prepared and taken care of, and grown, and processed, and all that. My coffee journey started actually in Starbucks and then I moved to the more specialty cafes.

Patrick Bowen:

As I think most people did. That's like the gateway drug of getting into better coffee. I think for some people. Maybe not… Maybe some people stop by a local Shop and have a cup of coffee that's different from the fuel that they've been drinking.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah. I think it's becoming more of a practice that people will find those one-off cafes and start there. But I mean, those specialty places got their start because of places like Starbucks and Pete's and, you know, those types of shops really paved the way for coffee. It’s really like starting to get coffee to the masses whereas before it was, you know, a massive pot of coffee at home. Then Starbucks kind of paved the way of the consumer aspect like people coming to a shop serving people and then it worked into the specialty cafes with the fancy drinks and latte art and pour overs and really fancy coffee and so it's all a journey.

Patrick Bowen:

Yeah. Can I guess what happens next?

Ryan Rotman:

What's that? Yeah.

Patrick Bowen:

That you work in coffee for so long and you develop this horribly expensive habit and because of that – that's the sole reason you became a developer – to pay for your coffee habit. Is that correct?

Ryan Rotman:

In some ways that may be true. The nice thing was the benefits, you know, working in coffee was like you, you just got coffee from where you worked. So it was like “This is really nice”. Now it's tough because I'm on the opposite end and I have to go out and buy coffee.

But yeah, that journey then, you know, Starbucks took me to a specialty shop. Spent even longer there, really got into coffee there. And then this is probably kind of pseudo where it transitions into my gateway into web development.

Our family was looking to move, so I was looking for a new job in Southern California. And based in Southern California, is the Specialty Coffee Association. There was a position open for an event coordinator working with their barista focused events and when I inquired about it I was like “I don't have any event experience, that's not my thing but I've been in coffee for a long time” and it turned out they actually they didn't necessarily want someone with event experience. They wanted someone that would be open to learning that, but they really wanted someone that had the coffee background. But then to kind of keep going with the journey for me to finally get to development… part of my job end up being to put together our registration pages for these events. I would say more or less, that's kind of where my start and web development happened. But now knowing what I know now that was like the furthest thing from web development.

Patrick Bowen:

Yeah, yeah. But that's everybody, you know? Everyone asks “When did you start doing this?” And a lot of people say the first site they built, or whatever it is. For me, I look back to being a kid and building HyperStudio decks. That's not web development but you get into interactive development one way or another.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, and I mean, this one, you know, it was within, you know, like a CMS software. It had this mode that you can preview it and then there's this HTML mode. So I was like “Well, I wonder if there's more that I can do with this”. And so that was where I kind of said “All right, you know, I know enough that I know that HTML builds all this in a sense”. So, you know, I went and kind of taught myself some of the real basic HTML tags to put in there and so I was actually able to, you know, it didn't offer any sort of CSS, I didn't know CSS at the time. It didn't offer anything like that, but it was like, “Okay, I can go in and make something bold or italic or that sort of thing. Really easy and,you know, get a few styles in there. So, that was kind of my intro into web development.

It was working within that and what was funny is I found myself – I've always been very detail-oriented – and so I found myself wanting to… You know, I'd use their software, put in the text and then I’d go look at the page and I’m like “Oh, this just does not look good at all”. So I'm going back into it and tweaking it. Yeah, you know, the most I can do is a little bit of HTML figuring it out. You know, I get it to points where I think “Okay this finally looks better, it's decent. You know, all the links work and this and that.” So that was kind of my intro into it. Then unfortunately for me what prompted a career change was my position at that association ended.Time wise in history, it was November of 2019, so eight months later Pandemic hits. And then my wife is actually the one that – she had been doing some looking too – all the sun was like, “You know, I'm coming across these web development boot camps. What do you think about that? You know, you did a little bit of this with the SCA. Is that something you think you could see yourself doing?”. And all of a sudden, the more I thought about it I was like “Yeah, that is totally something that I can do”. One, I enjoy doing it, that little bit… kind of my intro into it. And I was like, “Oh man, look what I'm doing!”. Of course now, knowing much more, it was like “Oh there's so much more that I could be doing.” So that was the routine I ended up going. So I ended up applying and getting accepted into a boot camp through UT Austin, which prompted a move to Texas from southern California. But yeah, that was, that was my intro into it.

So, I did a 24 week full-stack development program and we learned the MERN stack, which, you know, at the time, for them and that route, was kind of what they were seeing as industry standard. Yeah, you know, it was outside the Salesforce world but there's a lot of overlap between the two. Even now being in the Salesforce world.

Patrick Bowen:

Node and JavaScript focus seems to be the core of a lot right now.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah. Yeah, it was all JavaScript based. I mean the funny thing is getting into Commerce Cloud, there were initially some things where I was like the structure and the way it works kind of reminded me of React in a lot of ways where I can see the similarities and this doesn't feel completely out of left field, like I don't have any clue what's going on, you know. Initially I was like “There's parts of this I kinda see and I at least I can follow this. I may not totally understand it but I can follow it.

Patrick Bowen:

And so that was a year and a half ago, right? You've been here a year and a half?

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, so I've been at Red Van now for a year and a half. I started that program in July of 2020. Finished it in January of 2021 and then ended up getting hired by Red Van in May of 2021.

Patrick Bowen:

So, that was a pretty quick transition.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, it was. That was a really quick transition. I mean in some ways faster than I thought, but also, you know, I think sometimes too I was like, “Oh, I'm gonna finish boot camp, you know, and find that first job real quick” but it definitely took a little while. I mean the amazing thing too was just connections that I had made in the boot camp and then ironically enough, with Red Van, it was actually a connection through a guy that both you and I know.

Patrick Bowen:

Uh-huh. Who also studied music I believe, right?

Ryan Rotman:

Yes, it was also a music major. Yeah, and my roommate in college. Yeah…

Patrick Bowen:

So he suggests Red Van. Did you know it was a RVWU thing at all or were you just applying for a job or like how'd that flow through?

Ryan Rotman:

I initially just applied for a job and I think at the time when I found Red Van's website, I don't think they actually had any jobs posted when he first let me know about Red Van. But I want to say, he actually kind of pointed out that Red Van had an internship program and maybe that might be basically a foot in the door. At the time I didn't know about RVWU. I really didn't know much about Red Van other than what I could gather from the website. So I just randomly saw the contact form on there and so I just, you know, threw it out there. It was like, you know, can't hurt. I don't know who this is going to, I don't know who's gonna see it, but you know what? I'm just gonna throw something out there and see what happens. Then finally, all of a sudden one day I got a contact from Andrew and had a really good conversation and that's when he kind of shared with me about the internship program and them building out the university side and I don't think we have a spot yet but this may actually work in the near future so hold tight. You know, I'll definitely get back with you but I think we need to work on a few things first and then I'll reach out again. It actually ended up not being too much longer after that. He actually did reach out and started the ball rolling and basically it was more like, “We're bringing you in as a junior/associate developer, you're gonna go through this university program and, and we'll get you into a full-time…” I was full-time with the company, but you know...

Patrick Bowen:

That's always been an interesting thing because I’d done development prior to starting here, but I had not worked on Commerce Cloud and the internship and Red Van U didn't exist when I got hired in. But that idea of, “Yeah, we're just gonna find smart people, that are driven and will train them up to do it,” I think has always existed.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, and that's how Andrew and Aaron, that's really what they shared with me. I think initially he was basically that someone with very little experience as a developer in general would not be someone that they would have looked at in the past but what they were seeing was a void in really good Commerce Cloud developers. So they were also now seeing an opportunity to bring in people, train them up, and basically make them good Commerce Cloud developers. Like, let's use the resources and the people that we have to train them up and then get them into that.

Patrick Bowen:

So, how long was RVWU then? You went through that program. About how long did that take?

Ryan Rotman:

I think I ended up being there for about nine weeks. I probably would have been in RVWU longer, probably more like 12 weeks, but they did pull me out early to jump onto a project.

Patrick Bowen:

I think that's always been from my perspective, one of the benefits of something like RVWU. Because a lot of the platforms that you work on are fairly easy to go and grab, set up and install, but when you get into something like Commerce Cloud you can't just immediately set up a sandbox and start learning. So from that perspective it gives you a path into it. I mean do you think that it got you ready for client work fairly well?

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, I think it definitely got me ready. The nice thing was the way Aaron and the team structured RVWU was, they basically did try to make it as a real world experience as possible. Even all the way down to how we handle writing tickets, commenting back on tickets, and submitting PRs. Aaron really, really focused it to make sure this is really well-detailed out.

Patrick Bowen:

Because it is legitimately set up like “Okay cool. You're on this team developing for Client X. Here's your tickets.” And as you go through the tickets, you progress through in a normal sort of agile workflow right?

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, mmm-hmmm

Patrick Bowen:

Okay, so you've been here 18 months and that was nine-ish weeks of it. And then, what a month ago, two months ago, you got certified as a Commerce Cloud developer?

Ryan Rotman:

I did. Yeah.

Patrick Bowen:

So that something must have been done right? Either, that detail oriented nature, the amount of coffee you've fed your body, jump, started that process, or maybe the program works.

Ryan Rotman:

I mean, I think it's a mixture of everything I definitely do. I really do think the program works. Especially not having had much developer experience. If you throw me right in I wouldn't have had any idea. I'd be going probably to the main app storefront base and I'd be trying to make changes in there. And it's not just learning Commerce Cloud. It's also learning Autobahn and understanding how that fits in, how they built it and why they built it, and the things that are specific to that. It was really learning two things, which then it became – because of that – even that much more important to have something like RVWU. Because it's not just Salesforce and Commerce Cloud specific it's Red Van specific too. So here is Commerce Cloud, but also here is what we are doing as a company within Commerce Cloud. And so that also became very, very important before jumping to client work and especially ones that were using Autobahn.

Patrick Bowen:

I think what I've liked about the Autobahn team, the RVWU team, and just in general, the developers here on the engineering side of it is, it’s always “How do we do this?” and thinking as much as you humanly can as a developer to future proof it. Obviously that's loaded to say “future proof”, but I like the thought and the care that goes into it. To attempt to make it less painful to upgrade. And I think it helps everybody out.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, and even just knowing what your clients may want, or things that have been asked for in the past. You know, now being a part of Red Van for a year and a half. It's funny how many times I'll see questions come through like “This is what the client’s asking for. How can we do this? How much time would it take to do this? Is it possible to do this?” And then like the response back is “Oh, that's just a, you know, we already have that configuration in Autobahn. You just need to go and enable it.”
But I will say that coming through RVWU, I think the program was great then and from what I've heard even since then they've added more people to their team. I think it's probably even better now than when I went through it. I mean an amazing resource.

Patrick Bowen:

Especially as this branching out into other clouds too.

Ryan Rotman:

Oh yeah, they're doing that now too. I think they're gonna start doing some Marketing Cloud stuff. I know that B2B is part of it now too. So yeah, it's amazing how that's expanding, which is great too. Because, it's not just one specific thing. They're really seeing what the industry is doing as a whole and also what Red Van as a whole is doing and really bringing all the aspects into it which I think is amazing.
Having been here for multiple intern rotations, I think to even to come in as an intern and go through it, it just seems like it is such an amazing benefit and resource. I don't know if other companies have this as well, but I think it's been very well worth it and I think that's really also what allowed for me to even feel like I could attempt certification this soon.

Patrick Bowen:

So to wrap it back. To wrap it back to the most important part, which is coffee. If you’ve got RVWU, you’ve got a detail-oriented person, and you've got coffee, how much of your success percentage wise is based on the amount of coffee that you consumed?

Ryan Rotman:

It's all based on the amount of coffee. No, I don't think it has anything to do with the coffee, right? The coffee is a nice added benefit while you're sitting there trying to figure out all your code is not working.

Patrick Bowen:

So we've got a few minutes left and I need to hit on this one. If I'm a work from home, human – as we all are – or a work remotely human, I happen to be at home, and I'm not gonna go to the coffee shop today. What's the best? Like, I'm just pouring whatever into this drip machine that I just got for cheap and then I'm just drinking it. But I want to start drinking, I want to enjoy my coffee in the morning. What's your gateway? Would you say?

Ryan Rotman:

One, I would say, definitely try to go find some, I'd say the word good, but I would just say better coffee. I don't feel like coffee always translates to, you know, you can go find a really cheap wine and it could be amazing. I don't think coffee is usually the same way. So spending a little bit more for a better coffee will definitely help.
Patrick Bowen:

Okay, get good coffee, that's relatively fresh. And then, how would you prepare it?

Ryan Rotman:

I mean kind of a fun way to do it like if they wanted to get into feeling like they're doing like specialty coffee is just to go with like a simple pour over setup. Because you don't really need… It doesn't require too much equipment. You would need a pour over dripper that the filter would go into, but most of those you can set right on the cup. You don't need anything else special to brew into. And then the way to do it would be to get a gooseneck kettle, but even if you just had a tea kettle, you can make it work. And you know, as long as you have a way to boil that water it's a relatively easy experience.

Patrick Bowen:

Do you bring it up to boil? What's the proper temperature? I'm guessing that depends on what bean you've got in there or what type of roast right?

Ryan Rotman:

It does a little bit, generally speaking, the rough is like between 195 to 205 degrees Fahrenheit is kind of the optimum brewing temperature of water. Different roasts and different how they are processed can affect, you know that's where you can get very nerdy about it and get into the nitty gritty. But generally speaking, basically bring water to boil and then let it set off boil for about a minute and then, generally speaking, it's down into that brewing range.

Patrick Bowen:

I'm assuming the grind is gonna depend on the roast? If you're doing a pour over you want it a little coarser?

Ryan Rotman:

You're going to usually go like medium.

Patrick Bowen:

For an eight ounce I'm gonna grind up how much coffee?

Ryan Rotman:

Eight ounces you're probably looking at about 16 grams of coffee. And that's where I would say actually getting a scale is a good thing and then you can play with ratios and amount of coffee to water, you know? So, a scale is usually a good feature too.

Patrick Bowen:

And then I do what? Pour it all on!

Ryan Rotman:

So yeah. No, not all at once. So with the pour over if you're gonna do 16 ounces of coffee, it’s like 220 grams of water but you do what they call the bloom first. You use twice the amount of coffee, you'll add that amount of water. So for 16 grams of coffee, you'll start with about 30 grams of water that you'll add in there first.

Patrick Bowen:

And that's going to get you the bloom, where it swells up?

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, that gets you the bloom. It basically preps your coffee for the rest of the brewing. There's nitrogen and stuff in there. It allows for some of that to escape. Then kind of perhaps the coffee and then from there, then you can add… after that, it doesn't matter too much, you could add it all at once, you know, or you can break it up even a little bit further. For an eight ounce cup of coffee maybe another 100 grams kind of let it settle a little bit and then add the rest and then just let it run through.

Patrick Bowen:

The gist of it then is: Okay, I want my eight ounce or I’ve got my mug, I’ve got my pour over, I’ve got my gooseneck kettle, I’ve got my good coffee which has been recently roasted. Grind it at a medium grind. I'm using 16 grams, you said, of coffee for about six to eight ounces, which shifts based on personal preference. I put about 32 grams of water in there and I let it sit for a minute, a few minutes to get the bloom?

Ryan Rotman:

Just like 30 seconds.

Patrick Bowen:

30 seconds, you get the bloom and then you can kind of go over it. You know, maybe another poor and a little bit of a pause or at that point once the bloom is there it’s set up to get you the rest of the cup

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah. You can kind of think of it like just little pulses, you know, add a little bit more water, let it set a little bit, a little bit more until you get there. But the other nice thing too is homebrewers have actually come a long way. A lot of them take those same routes. So, they'll allow for the bloom to happen and then it'll pulse your water. It's making sure the water is at the right temperature before it starts putting it through. Some of them may be a little bit pricier, but there are also really good options. I have one that I actually use a lot now. And it does, I mean, it makes good coffee too. It's actually really another good option that's out there nowadays.

Patrick Bowen:

Sweet. Yeah, we're up against it I think, so I probably have got to cut it off, but I got what I need. I know my coffee. Congratulations on your development stuff, but I got what I need. The coffee side.

Ryan Rotman:

Awesome.

Patrick Bowen:

Cool. Anything else?

Ryan Rotman:

No. I mean just for me Red Van’s been an amazing experience and I’ll always be grateful for how they've done their training and their education program. For getting someone with very little development experience… I mean, it's been an amazing ride so far.

Patrick Bowen:

Cool. Cool with that I'll let you go have yourself, a splendid day. We'll chat again soon.

Ryan Rotman:

Yeah, cool. Thanks Pat.